this post seems messy and disjointed because it is in response to several responses to a previous post.
i think i get what ryan means about kierkegaard and christianity being real for you.
my goal is to prove or disprove god, using reason. if god is proven to exist, although i presently say i will dutifully submit to logic and give god due credit, i must admit i will struggle with making god real in my life; what difference will god's being make on a persons life in real terms, especially if they were a strong practitioner of, as ryan mentioned, human, secular love?
and another can of worms: it will be difficult reconciling several aspects of christianity such as god's jealousy and pride and insistence on sending non believers to eternal damnation.
in the light of all this, does the duty to logic still hold? im leaning towards yes.
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about proof for god: one should not and indeed cannot take the bible as a starting point to prove the bible: the argument becomes circular, ie 'the bible is true because the bible, which is true, tells me the bible is true".
we need to step out of the bubble, out of the truth framework the bible has constructed. the premise for god needs to come from a source that Doesnt claim gods presence in the first place.
its like the matrix. or plato's cave. one needs to step out of the matrix/cave to gain a clearer picture of reality, before making a sound and reasoned judgement on the nature of the universe. (apologies, i know plato's cave is slightly out of context here)
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about love, sin and free will: is free choice to believe really a free choice? granted, we have the choice when we are here on earth, but with eternal damnation in a lake of fire and brimstone, "in the place where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched", as a disincentive, id say we arent really free are we.
also, there is a lack of proof supplied by god in the first place. why does he hide in the shadows, when he could just give evidence of his existence, and let people choose from there whether they want to be his? is un-informed choice really free choice?
does god love us so much that he is prepared to look beyond us not worshipping him, and spare us from hell? or does he love himself more? he says clearly that non believers will burn. even though he sent jesus to die for us.
what about sin? i will say, the concept of sin has probably done a lot of good for human behaviour insofar as it governs human-human relations. when you reach the greatest commandment, "worship the lord your god with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your might", and you consider that, i paraphrase, "all work for man should be for god", and also consider the generational sin of adam and eve, it gets really tricky.
if i do not live my life to glorify god but to glorify valuable human life, is that sin? in gods eyes, yes, it is. so sinful a travesty is it, in fact, that one could spend eternity in fire and brimstone for it.
this is not an atheist rant. im searching, and i admit i struggle with the above, but the duty to logic still holds. this is a real issue about people that needs to be seriously addressed, not brushed off with the sunday school answer of: "for my ways are higher than your ways".
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I think the thing you said about not using the bible to explain the God is a valid one. But in this case, the bible is used to tell people of what God claimed to feel for his people, and what he promised to do for them. In the passage I emailed you, the Romans 8 (I think) one, it says that God loves us and has made us children of him, for all who believe in Jeuss. He also says that we can now call him "Father", and that makes our relationship with him that much more intimate.
ReplyDeletehey clement :)
ReplyDeletejust happened to see your note on fb so i came to take a look. i think it's alw good to question ur own beliefs and not swallow them just as they are..hope you find sth from your pursuit of truth :)
anw about the issue of God insisting on sending non-believers to eternal condemnation.. i've had some thoughts about it before, and i've learnt to understand it in another way: the common understanding is that our fates rest in the hands of a seemingly judgmental/tyrannical/jealous God. what if the truth is that we're all already condemned? sin is a choice to reject God and go our own way, but in doing so, we reject the only source of life as well. without God, there is only eternal separation, death and destruction. What if Jesus was God's solution to save us from our already condemned states, such that belief in Him could give us the salvation and restoration we need? if that were the case, people who do not believe would be on a straight path to you-know-where.
hope my ramblings make some sense :)
and take care!
zaneta, if my point is a valid one then the presupposition of a god based on the bible is not valid! thats why i started from scratch.
ReplyDeletefor the part on sin i was hypothesizing/presupposing a god proved by EVIDENCE, not the bible, and asking myself what my responses would be to a being as powerful and egoistic, yet also loving, as the one claimed in the bible.
hi kat, its good to hear from you!
ReplyDeleteyoure saying that the start state for our souls is eternal damnation and burning in a lake of fire and brimstone, and that god steps in to save us from that, right?
that still doesnt account for how god, if proved to exist, can allow that to happen to good people. despite sending jesus, he still clings on to the notion that people who refuse to worship him will burn.
i think i get what you say about us being condemned from the start, but if there is a god, and he is sovereign over all that is, he is still responsible to the basic decency he preaches; to at least not let people who have lived a decent life be condemned, even if that is the start state!
anyway, this is a more minor point. for me, proving whether god exists is more important first!
thanks :)
hm.. i think something that is very difficult to be disproved is our personal experience. we can disprove philosophies and theories, but we can't disprove people when they say they have experienced something.
ReplyDeletedon't know how you intend to prove whether God exists because there are so many loopholes in the rational processes. perhaps you could start looking at sth real and tt can't be disproven - your own experiences of God.
Has God ever been real to you, and have you ever experienced His presence greatly in your life? or is He just a notion that you grew up with?
Hi. You don't know me but I happened to chance upon your post. To me the only good reason anybody needs to disprove religious belief is the sheer number of religions in the world. To overuse an oft-repeated slogan, an atheist only believes in one less god than a theist (or a hundred billion if that theist is hindu, but that's outside the point). There is absolutely no basis for preferring one religion over another except that its the one you came into contact with.
ReplyDeleteAs for Christianity, the only rational basis for belief is the account of Christ's resurrection. Note only that the earliest accounts of this were written years after the alleged incident, and the records of the various apostles differ on many details. Personally I believe that Jesus did exist and was an inspiration to those around him, but I doubt that he in any way claimed he was God. The whole Trinity idea was syncretised into his teachings centuries after he died.
More importantly, I think it's important to consider that you don't need religion to be moral and ethical, and you don't need religion to understand what an absolute miracle that you should exist to be able to observe the world in all its beauty and splendour.
ReplyDeletethanks kat and fair enough, but i cant say ive felt god.. the times i thought i did were, looking back, probably driven by the atmosphere and fervour of the worship.
ReplyDeleteto feel god you have to believe, or so says the bible (i paraphrase). but i once believed and never felt anything bar the zeal of worship, not even in the quiet moments away from a worship session.
im not willing to let my experience be guided and coloured by a pre-professed belief and pre-conceived notions.
but what about you? what have your experiences with god been like?
important that when you consider the concept of 'god', it is not automatically the christian god.
ReplyDeleteon another topic, someone said, "the existence of so many gods proves that none are real". interesting!
hey sent you an email, got it yet?
ReplyDeletehi kat, yah got it. will think about it!
ReplyDeletethanks bro good point about non-christian gods, you do have the relevant books right..